Rocking in Hakata

Shaun - I don't think he (Jonadab, to whom I am assuming you're responding) meant to come off quite the way you interpreted. I mean, I don't know, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt. :-)

Just wanted to add something.
While I chose French over Spanish in Secondary School (out of a whole 2 choices), French was certainly the less logical choice. Spanish is the most commonly taught language (at least for the Southern and Western states) for very good reasons. Given that it is based off of Latin (and English is Germanic-mixed-with-borrowed concepts from many languages), its grammar, conjugation, and vocab are all quite different, as well as being ONE OF THE MOST GLOBALLY SPOKEN LANGUAGES IN THE WORLD. More than half of the American continent and surrounding islands also use it, but I guess they are too "3rd-world" to care about?
How many countries have a large group of Japanese speakers? Hell, Cantonese language groups outnumber Mandarin ones outside of ROC/PROC, yet I'm getting a feeling that these are more interesting and useful than Spanish (or it's cousin Portuguese, spoken by hundreds of millions in one of the most promising economies in the world...).

Really sorry for ranting on your blog Deas, I'll stop before I make this another essay. I have no interest in learning Spanish now, but certainly not because it's "Not particularly interesting or useful... for native English speakers" and completely because of my geographical location and future prospects. If anything, my friends who did learn Spanish formed lasting friendships with the fairly segregated and large Mexican community, not by learning Russian or some random language in vogue.
That bitch-slap of Spanish/Latin American language, culture, and history (indirect as it was) rubbed me the wrong way, seriously.

Jonadab - thanks for your comments, and welcome to the blog! I would say that it doesn't bother me as much as it bothers you when foreign people can speak English. Many countries speak English to start with, and the economic reality (at least until this point in time....sigh) has made it more viable for people to learn English than for Americans to learn other language. That's not to say that they shouldn't, but just to emphasize that I am not particularly bothered by it. Also, your answer is more related to foreign language acquisition by American students...not to the purposeful transition to a multilingual coexistent population. Any thoughts on that aspect?

On the one hand, I strongly agree that more people should be making the effort to learn a second language. Among other things, I don't think you can really properly understand even the grammar of your first language until you've learned another one. There are plenty of other good reasons as well, which for the sake of brevity I will leave unstated for now. So we agree there, learning a second language is good. Teaching a second language to your child is good.

On the other hand, I strongly disagree with the implicit assumption that if Americans are going to learn a second language it's probably going to be Spanish. That's a very myopic view. Spanish is, as languages go, not a particularly useful or interesting choice of second language for a native English speaker. For one thing, it's so similar to English, that it really doesn't teach you that much about languages to learn it. It has the same basic word order as English, extremely similar grammar, even more similar writing system, practically every word a cognate, and so on and so forth. On top of that, there's practically no interesting literature written in it. (Yes, there's Don Quixote. Now, name something else.) Frankly it's just a poor choice all around, for most Americans, unless your main goal is for us to be able to chat it up with first-generation immigrants who don't speak English, and I don't think that's a particularly important goal. As the senator says, immigrants will learn English, and furthermore (this he does not say, but I will) if they don't bother, it's not our problem; it's theirs.

Not that there aren't good reasons to learn Spanish. For some people, there are. I mean, say you want to travel in South America, for instance. That would make Spanish a logical choice. But for most people I'd say almost any other language would be a better choice. You could learn Russian, or Greek, or Sanskrit, or Japanese... there are dozens of good choices. I suppose it's possible that when he says, "You need to make sure your child can speak Spanish", he really means any foreign language. I'd like to think that's what he means. But that's sure not how it comes across.

OTOH, I agree with what he says about Americans going abroad and 99% of the time not speaking the language, while almost all of the foreigners who come here speak ours. That, to me, is very embarrassing.

Jonadab the Unsightly Ones last blog post was: Bad Analogies 101

thanks for the compliment. not that necessary, as I figure, if you aren't going to write something carefully, why bother writing it in the first place?
anyway, I wish I could have put more structure to my comment. Your post, on the surface, talks about Obama's speech, but there are immigration policies, education policies, issues in ethnic and second-generation identity, economic empowerment, socio-linguistics... also covered by this issue
*sigh* hard to talk about all of it at once.
I'm kinda biased against English-as-mandatory-language through some research I've had to make on linguistics, but maybe I'll find some pro-English education books to change my mind some day...

BillyWest - I use that argument for tourism purposes, but I'm pretty steadfastly opposed to a country adjusting to meet a minority's demands. I'm a firm supporter of assimilation. (Note that I'm not decrying Spanish language education; I'm simply delineating between mandatory education / individual choice in foreign language education / actor / acted upon.) I think cultural sensitivity should work both ways - and not create societal preset preferences for certain subsets of people. You know? I don't know if I articulated that clearly at all... But it is a salient one, I promise!

Lolcats last blog post was: Da horn on da bus goes

Since the Hispanic population is growing so rapidly in the U.S., I see it as only a good thing to require kids to study Spanish in school, if not for giving them a second language, at least for making them a bit more culturally sensitive.

Shaun - thanks for a really wonderful, well thought out comment. I think we agree on most of this topic, or at least on more than we disagree about. Anyway, I really appreciate your taking the time to write this out. It's very well put and easy to understand. :-)

I really don't have the time to comment throughly on this (rushing to make another presentation), but it's an issue dear to me, so I'll try my best in short.
First I don't wholly disagree with Obama's (or blue's) comments. They come from their respective backgrounds, as opinions usually go.The former seems to have a built up an annoyance to common thinking about race relations, and the latter seems to have built a cynical, persecution complex to protect himself from larger realities.
Anyway, Obama said what he said, but I doubt he was promoting traditional bilingualism in the states. The lack of multiple-language ability and education in the US is well documented, and I can only guess he wanted to emphasize that uncommonly-said political point instead of beating the quasi-racist "English is the only language of America" dead horse.
No country needs society-wide bilingualism. Many areas have high-concentrations of bilinguals (Malaysia, Switzerland, Hawaii, any region bordering two states in the world...), and that happened sometimes despite government policy (Malaysia censoring "non-Mandarin" Chinese, etc). And any school subject is not going to be learned and retained by a student who does not see or need the utility of it. I learned French for a couple years, and loved it (although hated the impracticality of the teaching method), but ultimately, I wasn't going to France anytime soon, no one near me spoke it, and I just needed to get through it so I could graduate.
I don't believe the attitudes of Japanese students are that different from my school days.

Obama was getting at the lack of necessity to emphasize a "Only English" policy, as those who need it to survive in society will learn it naturally. I also believe (or want to believe) he wanted to show that second, third generation immigrants often can't speak with their parents and grandparents, and don't recognize their own culture or history - thus we should worry about children of immigrants not being able to speak Spanish, etc.
Forcing immigrants to assimilate linguistically into society creates a "double-bind" situation where they are damned economically if they seclude themselves from majority society, or oppositely, are damned by a loss of culture and communication to family (causes family strife often, if you can imagine)
as well as a recurring problem that - as they spend so much time making themselves like a "native speaker" they lose time to study meteorology, physics, or whatever field they wish to enter, and can be easily outspoken by those who were native speakers from birth and only needed to focus on their own specialty.
...
Some of his comments are going to be called by his campaign "inartful" for sure. But there are a lot of hidden problems with forcing languages and other subject matter that don't have universal utility.

BTW, while I believe Japan's education is fairly hopeless as long as it continues emphasizing nationwide "standard" curriculum and text, and that will not change until the University exams change (both are changing Japanese-time slooowly) - there are some private and public schools that do give Korean, Chinese, Spanish, and Portuguese options instead of English.

Tom - I quite agree with you. I'm not sure how long to require foreign language study, nor at what age to begin. But I'd love to see more personal choice and (therefore) more individually useful languages actually being learned. (And I'm glad you found him to be less freakish than his Wikipedia entry. Ha ha. Never can fully trust those things when it comes to people in the public's eye.)

Blue - you've got to be kidding me. You assume that I'm racist. You assume that I'm ignorant. You assume that I know nothing. You assume that you're fully aware of my socioeconomic upbringing. To be more exact, you assume that I led a sheltered life, blissfully unaware of reality. What's more, you assume that you can generalize to the entirety of America from your own experience. That's incredibly asinine of you. I hope you realize that it is offensive, and that it comes off as outright condescension. Get off your high horse, Blue. Seriously. And don't apologize insincerely prior to reemphasizing your insults. I find your sentence imploring me to open my eyes to reality truly ironic.

Hahaha, I guess I offended you a plenty.
I can explain all those things one by one,
but then it would be a book.
And I can discuss with you on this for hours,
but that's not possible.
Yet I think I can throw a few things.

I wrote about that Mexican American girl because I had been astonished by the reality how much people can be sheltered.
Not wanting to offend you again, I think this applies to the environment you grew up in.
Sorry!
A few month ago, I talked to a guy who is a young public school teacher. He told me that he had grown up in all White middle class area in NJ just like yours, I guess, and had attended NYU. After graduation, he became a teacher in Bronx, all underclass Black & Hispanic neighborhood. He told me what he had seen and experienced was beyond his imagination, even he lived in downtown manhattan for four years prior to that.
What I like to say is there are so many realities just you do not know yet.
I did not know anything when I was at your age either. I finished my college in Tokyo and came to this city with nothing but false hopes and exaggerated informations I collected from Japanese medias.
Loving Black music, I read many books about racism against Blacks and had a very sympathetic views over Blacks when I was in Japan, then I got racially humiliated more by lower class Blacks & Hispanics here and realized the reality was much more complicated and hersh than I could imagine.
I used to got to record companies a lot and their receptionists always thought I was from Chinese restaurant to deliver the food.
Then one night I was coming home from nearby supermarket with lots of shopping plastic bags. On my way, a bunch of young white guys were coming to my way and one of them yelled at me "What a big delivery!" when we passed each other.
Then I realized that in this society, it did not mater what kind of education I had , what kind of work I did or what kind of things I thought about. For them, I am supposed to work for cheap restaurant to deliver the food. That's the reality I have been living in.
Despite of these, still I never think Japanese socirty is better than Americnan or Japanese are better than Americans. Each society has upsides and downsides.
I can explain everything you pointed out but not now, sorry.
Just one more thing I can say is that you have to be open minded to understand the realities because we have tendency to close our eye to some types of realites which can make us uncomfortable.
I really hope someday you will know more realities of the society.
Maybe to be continued or maybe not.

I just listened to the audio, and I have to say it was a lot more restrained and less inflamatory than I had been steeling myself for having looked up Mark Steyn's Wikipedia entry!

He does make some good points about cultural identity and the like, and how it can be threatened by bilingualism. But I honestly don't think that people should be worrying about this in the case of the US. It is a country that has always played host to numerous languages.

While there is debate to be had about this issue, it's a shame that sometimes it gets hijacked by groups who use it to propagate anti-immigrant, sometimes racist sentiment.

Also, away from bilingualism, I would make second-language acquisition in schools compulsory for much longer. For countries like Japan that in no way means that every student should be forced to study, or that kids in the States should be made to learn Spanish. They should, in a perfect world, be able to learn whatever they want. But, they should learn something. England had just recently slashed the number of years of compulsory second language study during secondary school education from five, to three, which in a country with almost as pitiful rate of foreign language ability as the States, is a sad thing indeed. Not everyone has the ability or the inclination to acquire languages, but then not everybody has the ability or inclination when it comes to other subjects, like literature, or history, or science. Why should we designate one as being less important than the others?

Toms last blog post was: Reading time - The Lawless Roads

Tom - thanks for the thoughtful reply. I hope you get a chance to listen to the clip. I agree with what you've said for the most part - and I really wasn't trying to harp about what Senator Obama said, nor whether or not I agree with him. (I don't.) But I think the key is that his answer was about Americans learning a second language rather than Americans (including immigrants) learning English. Also, I think you're right about the difference between bilingual countries and countries where there is shared language despite differing primary languages among groups. I enjoy thoughtful comments, so don't apologize for the epic length. Looks like some others might even have beat you.

Clay - if Shatner does it, we know it's cool. Right?

Alex - I really do believe we're the same person sometimes. I could not have stated my thoughts on the subject better myself. Bravo!

Blue - I don't really know where to start with your comment. You began with the story of the Hispanic girl who had trouble learning English because of the good intentions of the American education system's Spanish programs. But...then you sort of went another direction entirely which leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I feel like you have an awfully dismal view of America. Your facts are...well, not facts. They're your opinions. And I couldn't disagree with you more. "Fact" 1 - Americans are not interested in foreign cultures. (You chose a poor argument here, by the way. America's entertainment industry dominates globally, for better or worse. Worse, in my opinion, recently. Anyway.) "Fact" 2 - All white Americans are racists. (How incredibly judgmental of you, Blue. You're not from my hometown. You don't know what my friends and coworkers look like. I'm appalled that you believe this.) "Fact" 3 - the Spanish language options prove that corporate America has gone bilingual already. (Or that corporate America is susceptible to lawsuits by people who claim that not having Spanish language options is racist. Some businesses surely prosper, and I don't hold it against them - I'm all for capitalism. I just think that more than one motive exists here.) "Fact" 4 - China and India will force Americans to learn foreign languages when they become the dominant economic superpowers. (Some parts of China and big chunks of India - notably wealthier, more industrialized areas - already speak excellent English. And I see no reason not to learn their languages anyway. Economics is a great motivator. So?) Then you conclude with a quick assertion that Canada is better than America, and call Americans stupid for voting for an unpopular president. Thanks for that. And thanks for being so open minded in your enlightened state. I've never agreed with your politics, Blue. And this time is no different. Some of your comments are great, but this one just stinks. If you'd like to comment again, I'd prefer that you drop the American politics and talk about the issue itself: do you think it is wise for a country to purposefully become bilingual in the sense that there is no overarching, uniting language?

Recently I talked to some Hispanic kids and one of them, a Mexican American girl who immigrated when she was two, said that she had struggled to learn English because her family and her neighbors had spoken only English and she had attended Spanish speaking class for immigrant kids of public school until 3rd grade.
I asked her if she had watched any TV programs like Sesami Street, she said that she had watched mainly Spanish Programings. Ugh.....This is the story of New York, not a small town near the border.

Fact#1 Unfortunately, most of Americans are not interested in foreign cultures. Just think about how many foreign film DVDs your old neighborhood rental store carried and how many of them you see in the ones of your current Japanese neighborhood.
As English speaking countries had dominated the world for a while, other countries thought THEY had to adapt themselves to make business with them, which meant learning English. Therefore Americans did not feel they had to learn foreign lauguages as much as others.

Fact#2 Many people ask why current immigrants do not try to learn English. There are many reasons like lack of resources and lack of necessity becuase they live in their own communities.
The main difference between current immigrants and the ones from around 1900 is race. If you are a White immigrant, you can blend in American White society by learning good English and wearing like them. If you are a non-White immigrant, no matter how much you try, you will never be fully accepted. Then why do you learn English if you can still live without it.
You might say that many of Gaijins are not fully accepted by Japanese, but still try to learn Japanese. Well, many Gaijins go to Japan out of cultural interests. Most of Immgrants in U.S. came here because of economical oppotunites, which is more traditional reason of immigration.

Fact#3 If you call corporations or just customer services of any companies in U.S., many of them already have choice of English or Spanish automated service because corporations have realized the economical possibilities in Hispanic community. So it does not matter how average people or Mark Steyn feel, America have already started to go bilingual as long as corporations can make money by that.

Fact#4 Because China and India's economical expantions are becoming so evident, more American will have to learn their languages not out of interests but out of economical necessities.

So now you see, so many heavy stuffs like politics, economy, culture and race in this language issue.
It is estimated that 1/4 of entire population of U.S. will become Hispanic by the year 2050.
And as long as corporations like to make money on this fact, America will keep going bilingual whether you like it or not.
This does not means everybody have to speak mutiple language, but probably more people will speak more than one language.

And about the comment of Mark Steyn, how come he thinks Canada is less stable??? compared to who, U.S.?
I am not knowledgeable about their society but
They have universal healthcare, lower crime rate. They are not doing any stupid war, they do not have subprime loan mess and they are not stupid enough to choose B-guy twice.
Do you really think they are less stable?

Sorry for the long long post.

I don't agree with mandatory language skills, because there already exist requirements in terms of language skills for anything you apply for. For example, if you want to work for Company X in the States, most likely the ability to speak English will be required of you. For immigrants who want to work for Company X, they'll be motivated to learn English.

For English education in Japan, I feel it shouldn't be required for students. I think there should be a more flexible system like in the States (and I may be castigated by people who can't [or won't] find anything good in the American educational system) where students get to choose a foreign language to study. I had a 3rd-year high school student a few years ago who, when I asked whether or not she would continue English in university, told me she would not continue to study English, as she wanted to study Spanish. "Man," I thought, "If only you had started studying Spanish from the beginning and saved yourself this whole waste of time spent on English."

Now, as an English teacher that may seem like a strange stance to have, but I am not married to the English language, and am more enthralled by education and knowledge in general. Second language acquisition should be promoted, and there should be adequate information about the utility of foreign languages in L.A.S. (Life After School), but languages shouldn't be forced on people who have no drive to learn them.

Take Japan as an example - Many (especially Western) foreigners don't care to learn Japanese. However much I may disagree with that sentiment, I don't think they should be required to learn Japanese while they live here. They'll have to face the consequences of their choice, though - No potential for career advancement, inconveniences in everyday life, limited social capacity, etc. People who choose to learn the language, thus choosing to integrate themselves into Japanese society, should be rewarded as a sort of encouragement policy put forth by the government in things like extended visas and easier requirements for permanent residency.

(I may rewrite this on my own blog.)

Alexs last blog post was: “This is what I think of you, China!”

The more foreign languages Americans know, the less English is an essential language for world travel. For the sake of the forced-Esperanto-standin!...

PS - sorry for the epic length of the above.

Toms last blog post was: Reading time - The Lawless Roads

I haven't listened to the audio clip yet as I'm at school, but I will when I get home. So apologies in advance if I make the wrong assumptions about anything being said therein.

I think there are differences between countries which are bilingual and countries that just have an exceptionally high number of people speaking another language.

I think Obama was merely advocating the latter. I don't think he was saying the US should be a bilingual country, just that more people should make an effort to learn another language. He happened to pick out Spanish because it's the most commonly spoken second language in the States, so it makes logical sense. I don't think that even if learning Spanish was compulsory in schools to a much larger extent than it already is, that English usage would decline, and the status of English as the primary language would be threatened. I would struggle to think of an instance in recent times when one language has been entirely supplanted by another.

In the Netherlands I don't think I ever met a single person who couldn't speak incredibly good English. At the same time I never noticed a decline in Dutch usage or people proclaiming it as under threat. English was just another skill people had, and taken for granted as that.

Bilingual countries (where part of a population use one language as their primary tongue, part use another) are another matter entirely, and one that I don't really have experience with. I believe that part of the recent discussion over the future of Belgium as it remains is connected to having multiple languages though, and I can see why it might be problematic in terms of cultural and political identity.

My friend from Luxembourg is visiting next week, so I'll ask her what she thinks about it all. They speak three languages there, but from what I gather, they are used for different roles, eg. speaking, official documents, media. I think as well that at various stages of school life the language of instruction switches between the three, meaning that everybody is proficient in all three. Sounds insane, but in a good way!

Toms last blog post was: Reading time - The Lawless Roads